Tuesday 2 October 2012

Re: [wanabidii] Lake belongs to Malawi, UK letters reveal

1. Nilidhani mjadala wetu unatokana na hiyo mikataba (treaties)
inasema nini na sisi tunaitafsiri namna gani.
2. Nilitegemea tuelimishane katika hili kama ambavyo baadhi yetu
wamekuwa wakifanya ili tupate a way forward.
3. Sikujua kama mtu akijaribu kutoa tafsiri inayosemwa kwenye hiyo
mikataba anamsaidia "enemy" na anakuwa "traitor".
4. Mfano, nilichochangia kinatokana na jinsi nilivyoelewa Article 15
of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS)
(Montego Bay, December 10, 1982) on Delimitation of the Territorial
Sea between States with Opposite or Adjacent coasts:

"Where the coasts of two States are opposite or adjacent to each
other, neither of the two States is entitled, failing agreement
between them to the contrary, to extend its territorial sea beyond the
median line every point of which is equidistant from the nearest
points on the baselines from which the breadth of the territorial seas
of each of the two States is measured. The above provision does not
apply, however, where it is necessary by reason of historic title or
other special circumstances to delimit the territorial seas of the two
States in a way which is at variance therewith."

4. Inawezekana tafsiri yangu si sahihi au ya wachangiaji wenzangu.
5. Ili kupata mwanga ni lazima kila mmoja aeleze tasiri yake na
ipambanishwe na tafsiri nyingine au ushahidi wenye uzito zaidi.
6. Nilikuwa katika stage hii.
7. Lakini kumbe wenzangu mmevuka hapa na ndiyo maana baadhi mnaanza
kunishambulia.
8. Ila sasa kama majadiliano yanakuwa ya namna hii na hasa
kumshambulia mchangiaji na badala ya kutetea hoja tutajifunza nini?
9. Katika yote niliyosema sijamsaidia "enemy" na wala sijawa "traitor"
kama baadhi ya wachangiaji wanavyodhani. Napenda nchi yangu Tanzania
kama Watanzania wengine wanavyoipenda ila kwa hili tungeelemishana
namna gani tunaweza kufikia mwafaka bila ya kusababisha mafarakano.
10. Mwisho niseme: I love to see this issue resolved peacefully
without engaging in any war as President Jakaya Kikwete said recently.
Wars have never been solutions to African problems!
11. Let's not attack others simply because their
opinions/interpretations are different from ours.

On 10/2/12, Telesphor Magobe <tmagobe@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sina la kuchangia zaidi ya kushangaa na kusikitika!
>
> On 10/1/12, denis Matanda <denis.matanda@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Acheni kumshambulia Magobe bure. Busara inatakiwa itumike hapa......
>> On Oct 1, 2012 8:05 PM, "Godfrey Ngupula" <ngupula@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You guys.suala la Tz na Malawi lilivyo,ile speed ya kujenga kwanza
>>> tensiona kisha kuingia ktk discusion ndio ilitakiwa. kwa speed na
>>> mikwara
>>> ya bwana Lowasa,huu mgogoro tungeumaliza kwa kupata nusu ya ziwa kama
>>> ilivyokuwa mwanzo.Nyerere alifanikiwa kuishi na Banda kwa miaka yote kwa
>>> style hiyohiyo. Lakini,kwa style ya bwana Jk,ya kutafuta zaidi uswahiba
>>> na
>>> urafiki kuliko haki,am telling you.Tanzania at last tutaambulia possibly
>>> less than 5& ya lake nyasa..Tumeshuhudia jinsi mgogoro wa matumizi ya
>>> maji
>>> ya ziwa victoria na mkataba wa kikoloni na misri.Bila ya mkwara wa
>>> aliyekuwa waziri wa maji of that time,tusingefika.Godfrey Ngupula
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 7:32 PM EEST ezekiel kunyaranyara wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Brother
>>> >Matinyi,
>>> >
>>> >When
>>> >I saw Mr Magobes' thread down here on this saga this morning, I felt
>>> > like
>>> nausea.
>>> >I was really infuriated by his comments (just to be fair and frank) and
>>> >thought that may be he is not a Tanzanian. I immediately prepared a
>>> > reply
>>> thread
>>> >which after reading it twice before posting it, only to find that it
>>> > will
>>> be
>>> >tasteless to most of these forum contributors.
>>> >
>>> >I
>>> >decided to keep tight-lipped and see if others will like his comments.
>>> Now I understand that no any Tanzanian likes
>>> >Magobes' comments. From your comments now it is obvious that Magobe has
>>> > a
>>> >vested interest in this Saga. May be he is a Malawian, a traitor or
>>> "unnecessary
>>> >coward".
>>> >
>>> >My
>>> >advice to him is that he mutes his computer or mobile keyboards and
>>> > stops
>>> downhammering our serious efforts and ridicule Tanzanians with
>>> >meaningless pass off and advices that will ultimately sink down
>>> >their sprit in looking for their right. It is better he understands
>>> > that,
>>> we
>>> >(all Tanzanians) are serious in this concern and we do not want any
>>> > body
>>> to scam
>>> >with our lake. If he cannot assist us then he is against us.
>>> >
>>> >I
>>> >find this as a way of sharing with him my comments that reflect my
>>> feelings
>>> >towards his comments.
>>> >
>>> >KEMS
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >________________________________
>>> > From: Mobhare Matinyi <matinyi@hotmail.com>
>>> >To: Wanabidii googlegroups <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
>>> >Sent: Monday, 1 October 2012, 6:21
>>> >Subject: RE: [wanabidii] Lake belongs to Malawi, UK letters reveal
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >My colleague Magobe,
>>> >You seem to love Malawi so much - what did you get from these people
>>> > when
>>> you spent some time in their land during your missionary/etc work?
>>> >Anyway, we are not discussing the Treaty alone; we are discussing the
>>> whole issue and that is why we think our motherland - Tanzania - has
>>> legitimate claims.
>>> >Matinyi.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 11:26:40 +0300
>>> >> Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Lake belongs to Malawi, UK letters reveal
>>> >> From: tmagobe@gmail.com
>>> >> To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com
>>> >>
>>> >> The lake under dispute belongs to God. Tanzania and Malawi claim the
>>> >> lake belongs to them - Tanzania: half of it and Malawi: the whole of
>>> >> the lake. At this point, there is no party, which is wrong or right.
>>> >> If we go by what treats say, the whole lake belongs to Malawi. We may
>>> >> want to use 'muscles' but they don't help in things that are clear.
>>> >> If
>>> >> we want, we can convince Malawi to give us half of the lake but just
>>> >> force doesn't change the treaties under discussion.
>>> >>
>>> >> On 10/1/12, Willy Makundi <wrlmakundi@aol.com> wrote:
>>> >> > Ndugu Matinyi, let Mr Banda and all Malawians know that the world
>>> >> > did
>>> not
>>> >> > begin in 1890, neither is a Treaty between two robbers a definitive
>>> word on
>>> >> > the rights of the robbed. Could anyone tell me how the life of the
>>> people on
>>> >> > the eastern shore changed the day after Germany and United Kingdom
>>> signed
>>> >> > this treaty divvying up spheres of influence. Was there a single
>>> fisherman
>>> >> > who stopped fishing or a swimmer who applied for a visa to take a
>>> >> > dip
>>> in the
>>> >> > lake?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > This treaty can NOT and SHOULD NOT bind owners of the rights to the
>>> lake
>>> >> > prior to the treaty, unless one shows me where the Wamandas,
>>> Nyakyusas,
>>> >> > Matengos, Wanyasa signed off their rights to their water, fish and
>>> lake
>>> >> > resources. Lets not be ridiculous. Tanzania should make it very
>>> >> > clear
>>> that
>>> >> > the riparian rights of the people around lake Malawi/Nyasa have
>>> >> > never
>>> been
>>> >> > up for negotiation neither interrupted for a thousand years before
>>> Kaiser
>>> >> > and the King came up with the idea of sphere of influence - what
>>> >> > ever
>>> that
>>> >> > means. Sphere of influence za wazungu inahusianaje na mbasa za
>>> Wanyakyusa?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > A Mmanda shall never ever need a visa to go fetch drinking water
>>> >> > from
>>> a Lake
>>> >> > whose main inlet for the northern waters is from rivers like Songwe
>>> flowing
>>> >> > from Tanzania. The Malawians and the world should know that we will
>>> defend
>>> >> > our riparian rights with whatever means necessary and that there
>>> shall not
>>> >> > be a Malawian or their vessels that shall ever be safe once they
>>> cross the
>>> >> > median line of the lake - unless and until our riparian rights to
>>> >> > the
>>> lake
>>> >> > are affirmed by Malawi and the international community. Period!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Meanwhile we should prepare ourselves to defend the rights of our
>>> people
>>> >> > near Lake Malawi. I am not a war hawk but I surely will not give
>>> >> > away
>>> >> > inalienable rights of my people because some King and a Kaiser
>>> >> > signed
>>> some
>>> >> > Treaty in the North Sea. I am an old man but for this cause, I will
>>> take up
>>> >> > arms if Malawi and the world choose to be irresponsibly
>>> >> > unreasonable.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Tuache kumumunya maneno, haki zetu za ziwa hatukuwahi kuwapa
>>> Wajerumani wala
>>> >> > Waingereza na kwa uhakika sio Wamalawi. Sio kiburi, sio ubabe, ni
>>> kuweka
>>> >> > wazi kosa la uchoraji ramani ambao haukutilia maanani haki za
>>> >> > msingi
>>> za
>>> >> > wakazi. Hata tungekuwa wadogo kama Shelisheli hii haki
>>> >> > tungeipigania
>>> hata
>>> >> > kwa miaka alfu. Ni Mungu tu anaweza kutunyima haki ya matumizi ya
>>> maji.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Mchilyi7.0
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>> >> > From: Mobhare Matinyi <matinyi@hotmail.com>
>>> >> > To: Wanabidii googlegroups <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
>>> >> > Sent: Sun, Sep 30, 2012 8:57 pm
>>> >> > Subject: RE: [wanabidii] Lake belongs to Malawi, UK letters reveal
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Banda and your fellow supporters, and Malawians,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > It is foolish to ask London to comment on that issue because they
>>> >> > are
>>> the
>>> >> > ones who messed up everything, not once, but many times.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > For your information, in the 1926 House of Commons hansards the
>>> British
>>> >> > secretary of colonies is recorded to have said: "I don't know where
>>> the
>>> >> > border is" - when he was asked to clarify on the issue. That was
>>> >> > 1926.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Again, in the 1950s when the British were redrawing the borders of
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > Rhodesian Federation that would have included Malawi, Zambia and
>>> Zimbabwe,
>>> >> > they got into debate over the same border and decided to trash the
>>> 1930s map
>>> >> > in favor of the new map that placed the lake inside Malawi. Why did
>>> they
>>> >> > discuss the matter among themselves if the issue was clear?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Here is another note: The facts as shown below regarding the
>>> >> > British
>>> mandate
>>> >> > over Tanganyika (given by the League of Nations) and the
>>> >> > trusteeship
>>> (given
>>> >> > by the UNO) are incorrect. Please refer to my earlier briefings on
>>> the same
>>> >> > detail which can also be found in a few studies including a PhD
>>> dissertation
>>> >> > by a Tanzanian which is still going on.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Thank you.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Matinyi.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 13:46:21 -0400
>>> >> > Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Lake belongs to Malawi, UK letters reveal
>>> >> > From: emuganda@gmail.com
>>> >> > To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Charles Banda,
>>> >> > It is not a question of oil and gas. If the whole lake belongs to
>>> Malawi
>>> >> > then Tanzania has no right to use the lake,
>>> >> > and fish in it.
>>> >> > em
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Charles Banda
>>> >> > <chasbanda@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Tanzania already has oil & gas, it does not want poor Malawi to
>>> >> > enjoy
>>> its
>>> >> > own cake.
>>> >> > Word that Iranian oil tankers are flying Tanzanian national flag
>>> >> > Politics and economy.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Deogratias Kawonga
>>> >> > <deogratias.kawonga@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Matinyi,
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Huyu Jamaa kaanza tena
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Sent from my iPhone
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Sep 30, 2012, at 16:51, Charles Banda <chasbanda@gmail.com>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > As Malawi and Tanzania grapple with finding solutions to the Lake
>>> >> > Malawi boundary wrangle, Downing Street memos on the issue during
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > Hastings Kamuzu Banda era we have seen build a strong case for
>>> >> > Malawi.
>>> >> > The memos were written in the 1960s when the dispute first surfaced
>>> after
>>> >> > then Tanzanian president Julius Nyerere wrote London, complaining
>>> about
>>> >> > Banda's "expansionist" policy that was claiming the whole of Lake
>>> Malawi
>>>
>>> --
>>> Karibu Jukwaa la www.mwanabidii.com
>>> Pata nafasi mpya za Kazi www.kazibongo.blogspot.com
>>> Blogu ya Habari na Picha www.patahabari.blogspot.com
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>> --
>> Karibu Jukwaa la www.mwanabidii.com
>> Pata nafasi mpya za Kazi www.kazibongo.blogspot.com
>> Blogu ya Habari na Picha www.patahabari.blogspot.com
>>
>> Kujiondoa Tuma Email kwenda
>> wanabidii+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com Utapata Email ya kudhibitisha
>> ukishatuma
>>
>> Disclaimer:
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>> legal
>> consequences of his or her postings, and hence statements and facts must
>> be
>> presented responsibly. Your continued membership signifies that you agree
>> to
>> this disclaimer and pledge to abide by our Rules and Guidelines.
>>
>>
>>
>

--
Karibu Jukwaa la www.mwanabidii.com
Pata nafasi mpya za Kazi www.kazibongo.blogspot.com
Blogu ya Habari na Picha www.patahabari.blogspot.com

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