Re: [wanabidii] Mpaka kati ya Tanzania na Malawi: POLITICS versus FACTS

Ni upepo tu utapita

Usishange mwezi ujao ukashangaa mafuta yameshaanza kuchimbwa na sisi tumekalia politics

Au walioenda mkutano wakarud accont zao za Uswisi zikiwa zimetuna na tusipate mshindo nyuma wowote


Mungu Ibariki Tanzania

Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on the Tigo Tanzania Network

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From: moses <mosesgasana@yahoo.com>

Sender: wanabidii@googlegroups.com

Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 22:29:34 +0300

To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com<wanabidii@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: wanabidii@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Mpaka kati ya Tanzania na Malawi: POLITICS versus FACTS

Yap! Source link na ikibidi jina la mwandishi vitangulie kabisaaaaa.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 8, 2012, at 9:22 PM, Mobhare Matinyi <matinyi@hotmail.com> wrote:

Jamani muwe mnasoma vyanzo vya mambo yanayowekwa humu - tusiwe wavivu. Hii kitu iliwekwa humu na Juma Mzuri na amefanya kazi nzuri lakini mzigo wenyewe si wake. Nenda tena kaangalie chanzo chake.
 
Nadhani pia mtu ukiwekwa kitu, onesha kuanzia kule juu kwamba ni cha nani. Huu ni utaratibu wa kistaarabu na kisomi.
 
Matinyi.

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Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 10:47:38 -0700
From: koddymk@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Mpaka kati ya Tanzania na Malawi: POLITICS versus FACTS
To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com

Hi all

 

I also thank Juma Mzuri for the records he gave us.

 

I have my point of view on this;

We are neighbours (geographically), some of us have blood relationships (very close or as per our ansestors). We share language (those at the border), we do our shopping, farming at closer if not common area, we used to share ideas/experiences, resources for our daily life practises being keeping cow or fishing. Thus we are instrisically connected (forget about this virtual borders).

I think there are questions we need to ask and get answers regardless of what contents are in the documents from archives being London, Dar es salaam, Lilongwe,  Blantyre and wherever.

Who put this borders? For whom did he/she do so? Did they ask us/who were involved in the process and final decision? Do we have to respect those borders? either yes or no, Why?

 May be Juma Mzuri answers of those question will decorate your PhD, rather than merely accepting the so called facts from the docs you refering  

 

 

"Good/effective Managers not only make decisions by themselves, but they also influence decision making of people in the organization by creating appropriate Administrative Conditions"

 

From: anyosisye njobelo <anynjobelo@yahoo.co.uk>
To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2012 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Mpaka kati ya Tanzania na Malawi: POLITICS versus FACTS

Nashukuru kwa maneno ya Juma Mzuri kuhusu mpaka wa malawi na Tanzania. Ameeleza vizuri sana kiasi kwamba imeeleweka ila namwambia mpaka wa malawi na Tanzania upo katikati ya ziwa hata wa ziwa tanganyika ni hivyo na wa victoria ni hivyo. Kama tatizo lako ni PhD unayotafuta ziwa nyasa we itafute lakini mpaka wetu uko pale pale tutaulinda kama tulivyoulinda alipokuwepo Kamuzu banda. Pole Juma ukweli ndiyo huo na kuitwa ziwa nyasa kusiwe kisingizio kuwa ni lao. Kwa nchi yao wanaliita ziwa malawi hayo ni yao sisi ni ziwa nyasa piga ua nyasa ni letu sote --- On Tue, 7/8/12, Juma Mzuri <jumamzuri@gmail.com> wrote: From: Juma Mzuri <jumamzuri@gmail.com> Subject: [wanabidii] Mpaka kati ya Tanzania na Malawi: POLITICS versus FACTS To: "Wanabidii" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com> Date: Tuesday, 7 August, 2012, 13:48 Ndugu zanagu, huenda mnafuatilia vizuri tatizo la mpaka wetu wa ziwa nyasa na malawi! Nilishtushwa sana na hotuba ya bwana waziri. mimi napenda utaifa wangu na uzalendo wangu. lakini napenda sana kutetea mambo yangu kwa kuukubali ukweli, kujua facts zaidi, kukubali hata zile zinazonipinga na ndipo najipanga kujenga joja. Eneo hili nafanyia study yangu ya PhD. Sidhani kama nipo sahihi zaidi na lengo langu si kusema nani anamiliki nini! Ukweli naoufahamu, tatizo si kubwa kivile kama tunavyolifikiri kama tutachukua muda kupitia documents zote na muhimu. Tunahitaji kwenda Public Records Office-Uingereza, Colonial Archives Potsdam, ujerumani, pia malawi national archives, tanzania national archives, libraries za UDSM na Chancellor college malawi. naamini ubishi utaisha kwa kuwa documents zote zipo. Angalizo: ziwa nyasa liligawanywa na mabeberu wa kiingereza, kijerumani na kireno. mkataba wa 1890 uitwao anglo-german agrrement unasema mpaka wa German east africa(tz bara ya leo) na nyasaland(malawi ya leo) unapita kandokando ya ziwa nyasa kutoka mto ruvuma mpaka mto songwe! huu ni mkataba wenyewe, upo ktk documents nyingi sana.....!!international law inajua hili na international lawyers wanaelewa nini nazungumza! Sehemu nyingine ilikuwa ni 1891 kati ya ujerumani na ureno, mpaka ulianzia mto ruvuma kuelekea Portuguese east africa(msumbijin ya leo) na pia ureno ikawekeana mpaka na british nyasaland(malawi)...kwahiyo, kipindi cha ujerumani, mpaaka unasomeka 'it passes along the shore of the lake(nyasa)..... Mabadiliko ya mipaka: kipindi cha kikoloni, kabla ya mjerumani kuondoka, marekebisho ya mipaka yalifanyika kati ya mjerumani na mreno kwa kuspgeza mpaka mbele 0.5 KM from the original tripartite point, na vijisiwa vya mto ruvuma vikagawanywa. mpaka leo ipo hivyo. na eneo lingine ni kati ya mwingereza na mreno, ambapo, kisiwa kilichopo eneo la malawi linamilikiwa na msumbiji mpaka leo na eneo la ardhi lililopo msumbiji linakaliwa na malawi. mhuo ulikuwa mkataba wa marekebisho na ipo hivyo mpaka leo. kwahiyo, tulivyorithi mipaka, tumerithi na mabadiliko haya na hivyo hatuwezi kugombana na msumbiji wala msumbiji hawawezi kugombana na malawi. Mpaka wetu na malawi haukurekebishwa popote pale mpaka mjerumani anatoka... Marekebisho ya mipaka kipindi cha uingereza: sote tunajua german east africa, sisi pamoja na ruanda na urundi tuligawanywa katika sehemu mbili, ttukiwa chini ya League of nations tukiangaliwa na uingereza. Kunamabo nahitaji tuweke sawa. tukaitwa mandated territory na uingereza ni mandatory power. turudi ktk kamusi tutofautishe a an annexed colony and a mandate! Mpaka ukawekwa kati ya ubelgiji na uingereza, uliitwa the MILNER-ORTS AGREEMENT OF 1922! katika mkataba huu, mto kagera ulikatwa katikati na mpaka leo tumerithi hivyo. Hapakuwa popote pale ambapo eneo la ziwa nyasa lilirekebishwa kwa njia ya mkataba baina ya nyasaland state na tanganyika state...., isipokuwa, tofauti na mandates zote, tanganyika pekee, ilikuwa na tofauti ndogo, ambapo, mpaka wa ziwa nyasa ukapewa wanachoitwa 'wording', na hivyo, ramani ya tanganyika na official records zikaonyesha kuwa mpaka umepita katikati ya ziwa nyasa! na hapa ndipo tatizo linapoanza na sisi tumechukulia hii ndo absolute fact, hatuendi mbele kidogo. haya yapo pale national archives secreatarita files, ACCESSION NUMBERE AB 8 na AB 30! nafikiri hotuba yote ya bwana mkubwa jana imetoka ktk files hizi, ndizo walizopelekewa!!! twende mbele kidogo, ni kweli, kama mheshimiwa alivyosema jana, ramani nyingi kuanzia 1922 mpaka 1939 zinaonyesha mpaka upo katikati ya ziwa! je, ukweli huu utatutosha pekee mbeleni tukifikishana mbali? hapana!mheshimiwa hakusema kuwa ramani zingine, japo chache muda huu huu na official reports hazionyeshi mpaka au zinaonyesha mpaka upo chini. lakini ni chache! kwanini hili?bado natafuta majibu, lakini kwa harakaharaka, unaweza ukasema kuwa uingereza ilitamani tanganyika iwe koloni lake na si mandate! na pia ilishinikizwa na wawekezaji na hata jeshi ilisema afadhari waiteke ili liwe koloni na waachane na mandate! nahitaji tuelwe maana ya mandate. Hii yote ilitokea baada ya Donald Cameroon, governor wa tanganyika kusema kuwa tanganyika is a part of the british empire and it will remain so! hii ni siasa na si ukweli kama unaelewa maana ya kuwa wao hawakuwa wamepewa koloni kama mali yao, bali kuliangalia mapaka wananchi wapate 'akili' ili wapewe uhuru! kwa hiyo, kimsingi, kwa maana ya sheria ya kimataifa, tanganyika haikuwa part ya british empire kama yalivyo makoloni yaliyotekwa mojakwa moja na uingereza yenyewe! hapa pakatokea mvutano mkubwa sana katika house of Lords na house of commons! na hivyo basi, mtafaruku huu wa mpaka ulianzia hapa, kwa kauli hii na hivyo hata waingereza wenyewe walivutana kuhusu mpaka. ipo hivi, mwaka 1926, wajumbe wa mabaraza waliibana serikali iseme mipka ya tanganyika na ule wa ziwa nyasa! mabishano, kama haya yetu leo yalikuwa makubwa, ila si kwa kutishiana kwa kuwa walikuwa wenyewe na walitaka kuwekana sawa! ndipo secretary of state for colonies alibanwa na mjadala ulikuwa wa kisheria zaidi ukihoji status of the mandate, british empire, n.k; na kama waingereza wanamamlaka ya kujipangia kuhusu koloni waliolokabidhiwa kuliangalia(nieleweke na si kulimiliki)! mwishowe, mtu huyu mwenye dhamana alisema kwamba, hata yeye anashindwa kuelewa, 'what exactly is the sovereignty of tanganyika lying'! jamani mnamwelewa huyu mtu? kwamaana hiyo, haelwi vizuri mipaka yetu, ambayo wenyewe ndo wameirekebisha au kuipa 'wording'!! hivyo, tatizo linaanzia hapa na si muda mwingine wowot!!! Kipi hakusema bwana mkubwa jana: kuanzia 1939, mambo yalibadilika na hawa hawa watu tunaochukua ashahidi kutoka kwao, wakafanya madudu! na ilipoisha vita ya pili ya dunia, jamani oneni haya, hawa waingereza katika ramani zao, tena nyingi mno,(kaangalieni East africana section, university of dar es salaam, sehemu ya thesis, kuna cabins 3 zimejaa ramani na bado ni mpya sana kutokana na kutunzwa na pia kutotumka sana), kuimbezinaonyesha, bila shaka yoyote, kuwa mpaka wa tanganyika na nyasaland unapita pembeni mwa ziwa na si katikati! mkuu hakusema hili. aliishia 1939! kumbe hawa jamaa walichora tena ramani zote zikionyesha mpaka upo pembeni mwa ziwa!!!! kwanini hili?natafuta majibu, lakini nkwa haraka naweza nikaspeculate mawili. mosi, karibu na vita vya pili vya dunia, ilisikika tetesi kule duniani kuwa, ujerumani inarudi na inakuja kuchukua malokoni yake. (kasome national archives of tanzania, secreatariat files zote zenye kichwa cha habari, 'the future of tanganyika in british empire'). kwa hiyo, waingereza walihofia kutimuliwa na kurudi kwa wajerumani, na hivyo, wakarudisha ule mpaka wa awali wa 1890! na pia, muda huu, baada ya kwisha vita, tanganyika ikawa chini ya UNO ambapo ilipewa trusteeship status!maana ya hii ni rahisi kuliko mandate!ilimaanisha to be granted immediate independence! maana ya neno immediate hapa ni kwamba, kwa tafsiri yangu, waingereza wlifahamu wanatimka mapema mno kwani mkataba unasema hivyo....nafikiri, wakarudisha ramani zikionyesha mpaka upo pembeni...na kitabu ch Nyasaland cha mwaka 1958, kinaonyesha mipaka ya nyasaland na ziwa lote likiwa kwao! tukitaka kuwashinda wamalawi, lazima tukisome vizuri kipindi hiki na tuelewe facts zipi zinawapa kiburi na zipi sisi tuzitumie, la sivyo, tunaweza.............!!!!!!!!! !!!! kwahiyo future of tanganyika ilikuwa contested, uncertain, etc kipindi hiki, pamoja na mipaka yake pia!! tujiulize, kwa maana ya mandate, waingereza walikuwa na legal authority 'kurekebisha' mpaka wa ziwa nyasa? na je makosa waliyofanya waingereza, ndo legal backing yetu sisi? ebu tuzame tena tutafute facts tuwashinde hawa jamaa! Tulishindwana na uingereza kurekebisha mipaka. mwalimu alisubiri mpaka malawi iwe huru!akatoa miaka mitatu tu na asingetambua mipaka ya kikoloni(soma hansard, 1962). walipopata uhuru, kukawa na matatizo ambayo jana bwana mkubwa aliyaeleza. nampongeza ni dhahiri, 1964 cabinet crisis ya malawi na wale mawaziri kutorokea nchini kwetu kupitia ziwa, banda akaona ziwa ni infiltratio route! sera zetu za mambo ya nje zilikuwa tofauti. tulikuwa frontline state kwa ukombozi, wenzetu wakasapoti makaburu na wareno na wakawa na balozi sehemu hizo.....wakagombana na mwalimu, military show down miaka ya 1967-8; matusi na kejeli zikatawala kati ya mwalimu na banda, sisi na malawi.....kipara cha banda kinamagamba, tuliimba tukiwa jeshini, mwalimu akas