First I would like to know what is the implication of the Pope's statement to the understanding of Biblical teachings?
Second, how far back into Emmanuel's genealogy should Pope stretch the logic of concept of someone being conceived 'without original sin'?
Third what does the pope say about Jesus, was he conceived without the so called original sin?
Fourth what does the Biblical teaching of God with us' if the concept of original sin remain, yet some human being evade it?
Does the Catholic church 'interpret' as Jesus 100% God and 100% human being, or was He 50/50 human and God?
And, finally for now, who between God (through Scripture) and Pope (through what-meditation?) shall have overriding authority? Has God ever appointed a parallel?
From: 'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
To: "wanabidii@googlegroups.com" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] 'Pope' Claims Mary Was Conceived 'Without Original Sin' During Feast of Immaculate Conception
Jovias & Ludo,
Join the discussion
I'm Catholic and find this disturbing of the Pope, God is the one we worship and his Son Christ the one we find our salvation from and the Holy Spirit to help guide us in worship of the Father, God. What the Pope suggests is unbiblical. God Bless
I'm not Catholic, but I agree this is blasphemy! Scripture clearly states ALL have fallen short of the Glory of God and Mary is no exception. Only Jesus is the exception. Mary was chosen to be the vessel so that Jesus can come into our world and redeem us. So she has a VERY important role in all this. But still she was human.
That is exactly what you should say and believe to be a Christian. Congratulations, you are a Christian. What bothers me is that so many Catholics don't understand what you do, they look to the Catholic Church and many requirements of the Church as the basis of their salvation. In third world countries, believe me that their dependence on Mary and the many requirements of the RCC for their salvation places them at risk.
Well, I just two weeks ago had dinner with the Priest who confirmed me into the Catholic Church. I was seeking a Sacramental marriage (Canon Law 1130-1131) until my Fiancee becomes 60 in order not to screw up her SS benefits from her deceased husband. He denied it to me saying it wasn't of "Grave Circumstance". While taking instruction from him (Now a Monsignor and retired) said to me I was his Miracle Child as a Pentecostal had never come to him to convert to Catholic faith and stayed with the Church. I guess it's the 42 years of being a Protestant doesn't mean I go along with some of the stuff the Bishops of the Catholic come up with like this, what the Pope just said about Mary, I ain't buying into it. Being sinless and all, she was human, not divine. Why God chose her? Blood line and the best choice, who knows, a Mystery I don't worry too much about. God Bless & Merry Christmas.
Being sinless and all, she was human, not divine.
According to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, Catholic men and women are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the bishops of the Church interpret a passage and they are to accept what the bishops teach as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it. (Catechism 85, 87, 100, 862, 891, 939, 2034, 2037, 2041, 2050)
That may be true, I am a convert to Catholism and you might call me a Cafeteria Catholic I don't care. Mary was not divine, but human just as the Joesph was. If there is not Biblical standing for a rule/doctrine I do question it. If they want to throw me out of the Church, I will still attend Mass and take Eucharistic. I take my faith in God, Christ and the Holy Spirit, I believe in the Catholic Church but fear it's Bishops are running amok sometimes.
Your best bet is to study the Bible and pray earnestly (to God) for guidance. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
The Bible encourages people to check what they are being taught with scripture.
The Bible encourages people to check what they are being taught with scripture.
Like the RCC doesn't agree with scripture.
Now that is a bunch of nonsense.
Think about that next time your bowing to your graven image.
I was saved 8 years before I ever became Catholic, the good old fashioned Pentecostal way, while reading my Bible one evening I felt the Holy Spirit enter me and I fell to my knees alone in my bedroom and asked Christ to forgive me and accept me into his flock. I have been a totally different person since. I am saved and baptised and Catholic which came later.
Other people's beliefs are irrelevant, denomination is not in the Bible and is also irrelevant. For someone touting the RCC as being different from the "33,000 other denominations, you have your share of divisions Vatican 2 anyone?
"is only one Church you will find in the Bible -the one Christ established - the Catholic Church." Lost in fantasyland.
Truth bears this out. And I can prove it. If you like we can add it to the list of "arguments against the Church" that we are going through. We can take that up after the graven images
"Oh but the Church remains one Church." Ahh, no. I personally know catholics who drive over 3 hours one way to attend a church that rejects Vatican 2.
Here's something you have to understanding. The Church is one. There may be those who refer to themselves as Catholics but who are in fact not. The sedevacantists are the same as the Protestants except that you are on opposite ends of the revolt. The only difference between Protestants and Protestant-Catholics is that you have come out of the closet, they are still pretending to themselves. that they are Catholic. There are many of them of different variants. I have often challenged them to follow the consequences of their beliefs and just leave. Stop pretending.
Thomas seems to resent the fact that he is not getting what he wants, marriage to his fiancée but not until she reaches 60 years. Thomas have you ever thought that maybe you are living in sin with her...? Yet you want a priest to do your bidding of choice...
No, all I want is for a Priest to follow the Canon Law 1130-1131 and marry us in a Sacramental Marriage, not my bidding but what God and the Church calls for. When I explained our situation and that nothing would separate us, he suggested we do our own exchange of vows since we both are so sincere. God knows what is in my heart and my dear Fiancee, so we have exchanged vows and will do the formal marriage latter, but a piece of paper and blessing from a Priest is not going to make me any more married to her than I am at present. If I am wrong then I will be punished, but doubt that as I have said God is with me and the Holy Spirit is in me, I follow God not man made laws.
If one would think for himself and use their God-given reasoning and intellect to study the evidence for the teachings of the Faith, you will end up with more of that whole Martin Luther business, you can't have that now can you? Saved by grace....
No, however, we would follow the rules and not leave the faith when things didn't go our way like, (a priest not being able to get married). We all know that Martin Luther did this. Saved by grace...
You follow the "rules" of man, not of God. As far as saved by grace: Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Well now, you've put yourself in a paradox, either you are lying now or you are sayng the RCC lies as (Catechism 85, 87, 100, 862, 891, 939, 2034, 2037, 2041, 2050) disagrees.
That is actually true. Catholics are required to..."loyally submit their wills and intellects"...to their presumed ecclesiastical masters, I.e the so-called"magisterium".
That is actually true. Catholics are required to..."loyally submit their wills and intellects"...to their presumed ecclesiastical masters, I.e the so-called"magisterium". You mean as opposed to your ecclesial master which - drum roll - happens to be yourself. That is a wonderful church of one.
I quoted directly from the catechism.
Do you think because you quote from our catechism you know the whole book and our traditions and laws? You really don't that is one teeny tiny quote. Frank
From: Jovias Mwesiga <ngonzy@gmail.com>
To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] 'Pope' Claims Mary Was Conceived 'Without Original Sin' During Feast of Immaculate Conception
kiukweli ningependa frank aanze kutufundisha anachoamini maana nahisi anatumia muda mwingi kwa kanisa katoliki na hakuna anachoeleza ambacho ni kitata kwa wenye imani yao
On Dec 15, 2014 5:18 PM, "Jovias Mwesiga" <ngonzy@gmail.com> wrote:
-- Mvivu wa kushibisha bongo yakeOn Dec 13, 2014 11:19 AM, "Joseph Ludovick" <josephludovick@gmail.com> wrote:Materu
Its not the popes claim. It is the dogma of the church. How can you say the pope claims as if he is teaching his mind or some new teaching?On Dec 13, 2014 7:41 PM, "'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com> wrote:----ROME – In one of the feasts and celebrations marked on the Roman Catholic liturgical calendar leading up to Christmas, Catholics around the world observed the Feast of Immaculate Conception on Monday, a day in which those who follow the religion commemorate their belief that Mary was born without sin.The pontiff known as Pope Francis led Catholics in the annual observance of the holiday, delivering an Angelus address in St. Peter's Square."Oh Mary, our mother, today the people of God in celebration venerates you, the immaculate, preserved from the contagion of sin from the beginning," he prayed. "Accept the gift I offer on behalf of the church in Rome and throughout the whole world.""In this time that leads us to the feast of the birth of Jesus, teach us to go against the tide," Francis continued. "The power of God's love, which has preserved you from original sin, freed all of humanity through your intercession from every spiritual and material slavery and made the designs of God's salvation victorious within hearts and events."According to the National Catholic Register, he also declared to the crowds gathered that in Mary "there was no room for sin," because "God had chosen her to be the mother of Jesus," which resulted in her being preserved from "original sin."The pontiff later venerated the Statue of the Immaculate Conception in Rome's Piazza di Spagna and invited others to join him. The statue was created in 1857 as a mark of the Roman Catholic belief that Mary was conceived without sin."I ask you to spiritually unite yourselves to me in this pilgrimage, which expresses filial devotion to our heavenly mother," he said.
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