Tuesday, 23 December 2014

Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

Joseph Ludovick,
There are millions of RCs who were born and raised in that church but who find its doctrines of Mariolatry, and papal dominance repugnant to the Scriptures, to common sense, and to all concepts of freedom and democracy. There are millions who haven't been to mass for years and who are quite ready to say that they do not believe the doctrines of their church. The condition of the present day RC Church would seem to be in many ways similar to that of Judaism at the time of Christ. Like the Roman priests, the Jewish priests withheld the Word of God from the people, and their chief concern was their own advancement. The primary opposition that Christ encountered came from the priests, and it was also they who were primarily responsible for having Him put to death. Similarly, the RC Church, the priesthood has departed so seriously from the simplicity of the Gospel, and the teachings of the Bible have been so thoroughly covered over with manmade rituals and canon laws that the features of the apostolic church are hardly recognizable.

From: Joseph Ludovick <josephludovick@gmail.com>
To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

KUHUSU WALIMU WA UONGO KAMA MATERU!
SOMA
John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the
spirits whether they are of God: because many false
prophets are gone out into the world.
1 Timothy 6:3-5 - If any man teach otherwise, and
consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of
our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is
according to godliness; (Read More...)
2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among
the people, even as there shall be false teachers among
you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even
denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon
themselves swift destruction.
Ephesians 5:11 - And have no fellowship with the
unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].
2 Timothy 3:5 - Having a form of godliness, but denying
the power thereof: from such turn away.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 - For such [are] false apostles,
deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the
apostles of Christ. (Read More...)
Jude 1:4 - For there are certain men crept in unawares,
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into
lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our
Lord Jesus Christ.
1 John 4:1-6 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try
the spirits whether they are of God: because many false
prophets are gone out into the world. (Read More...)
2 Timothy 3:13 - But evil men and seducers shall wax
worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
1 John 4:1-3 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try
the spirits whether they are of God: because many false
prophets are gone out into the world. (Read More...)
1 John 2:26-27 - These [things] have I written unto you
concerning them that seduce you. (Read More...)
2 Peter 2:1-3 - But there were false prophets also
among the people, even as there shall be false teachers
among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon
themselves swift destruction. (Read More...)
Hebrews 2:14 - Forasmuch then as the children are
partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise
took part of the same; that through death he might
destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the
devil;
Philippians 3:1-2 - Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the
Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed [is]
not grievous, but for you [it is] safe. (Read More...)
Romans 16:18 - For they that are such serve not our
Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good
words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the
simple.
Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark
them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the
doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Jude 1:12-13 - These are spots in your feasts of charity,
when they feast with you, feeding themselves without
fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of
winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice
dead, plucked up by the roots; (Read More...)
2 John 1:7-11 - For many deceivers are entered into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the
flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (Read
More...)
Acts 25:7 - And when he was come, the Jews which
came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid
many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they
could not prove.
On Dec 23, 2014 8:33 PM, "Joseph Ludovick" <josephludovick@gmail.com> wrote:
KUHUSU KUUNGAMA "siyo Kutubu"  KWA KASISI
SOMA
In Summary it says that we must confess our sins to
God (1 Jn 1:9). We are to confess to 'one another' in
the presence of the presbyters (priests)(Jas 5:16). The
OT prepares us for the process of confessing to priests
(Lev 5:5-6). We see that Christ has the authority to
forgive sins (Mt 9:6-8), gives the authority to his
disciples (John 17:18, John 20:21-23) who now are
ambassadors for this ministry of forgiveness (2 Cor 5:18
-21)*
On Dec 23, 2014 8:11 PM, "Victor Mwita" <victormwita@gmail.com> wrote:
Nilikuelewa Joseph. Kama mngekubali namba 3 na kuikubali authority ya Biblia kusingekuwepo na ubishi. Tatizo linakuja pale unapoendelea kusoma hilo andiko lako. Utakubaliana na mm kwamba kanisa lina maandiko mengine yasiyo ya kibiblia ambayo yanatumiwa na kanisa lenu. Usingeweza kutubu mbele ya kasisi wakati Biblia inasema wazi wazi kwamba hakuna kiambaza tena kati yetu na Mungu kupitia kwa Yesu.
Hizo ibada za kupitia kwa Maria na hili la ubikira wake sio ya neno la Mungu.
Lets come to specifics. Nijibu hayo kwanza
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On 23 Dec 2014 19:56, "Joseph Ludovick" <josephludovick@gmail.com> wrote:
Victor
Nakuwekea hapa sehemu ya andiko langu. Kama umelisoma basi hukulielewa. Na hapo ndipo unadhihirisha dhana yangu ya mtoto wa form five HKL. Soma kilichoandikwa na uangalie ulichoandika. Hii ndiyo shida nyie wachungaji msiosoma mnayotupa.
  "3. However, since the Bible contains the indispensible "core" of God's Revelation, so to speak, Christians believe that no other revelations would ever change or contradict what God teaches us in and through the Old and New Testaments. Moreover, as the core of Revelation, the Bible contains all the truths necessary for our redemption and salvation, so that we neither seek nor need any other revelation to supplement or complete God's revelation as found in the Scriptures.
4. It is also crucial to understand that the Word of God, in Catholic understanding, is not primarily the Bible (the written text), but is Jesus Christ (the incarnate Word). The most important part of Christian faith is not the Bible, but Jesus himself. Jesus came before the Bible (before the NT books were written, and before the complete scriptures were canonized).
5. Moreover, the Church also came before the Bible! That is, not only did the oral preaching of the apostles precede the writing of the NT books (by several decades), but it was the early Church that determined the Canon of the Bible (not until several centuries after Jesus' life)."
On Dec 23, 2014 7:46 PM, "Victor Mwita" <victormwita@gmail.com> wrote:
Kaka Joseph nashukuru kwamba umekiri kwamba kwamba in catholism the Bible is not the final authority. Kuna vitabu ambavyo sio vya Mungu lakini vina mamlaka sawa au juu ya Neno Takatifu la Mungu-Biblia. Lakini kumbuka Mungu ametoa onyo kwa wote wanaopuuza neno lake.
Kwa kuwa mna vitu vingi visivyo na uhusiano na Biblia na hata Mungu mwenyewe ndio maana ni rahisi kukubali kila kitu. Ndio maana mnabudu mizimu makanisani.
Hii document niliwahi kuisoma na pia huwa ni msomaji wa vitabu vya maarifa na historia
By the way unazo taarifa kwamba kanisa liliuwa watu zaidi ya milioni 50 kwa kupinga mafundisho yake yasiyo ya kibiblia? Hicho kiburi ulichoonyesha kwamba sisi tunaowaambia ukweli ni kama HKL student na prof ndicho kilichotumiwa kuua watu waliokataa mafundisho ya kipagani kuingizwa kanisani. Badala ya kutumia Biblia kuleta arguements unatumia document za kibinadamu tu na kututishia maisha.
Tumia Biblia maana inajitosheleza na inajitafsiri yenyewe. Not human logic and philosophy
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On 23 Dec 2014 19:29, "'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Jose, most of you world probably fit into the category of Cultural Catholics. Your identification as Catholics is simply more cultural and social than religious. You might rightly be called "Womb to Tomb Catholics" You  often are born a family  and are therefore baptized, married and buried in the Catholic church…but have little or no concern about spiritual matters. Womb to tomb Catholics do not understand Catholicism nor do they seriously follow its ethical teaching. But they nevertheless have an emotional commitment to the Catholic Church. When they attend mass, it is out of habit or family obligation, not religious conviction. Being Catholic to them is essentially a cultural identity.

From: Joseph Ludovick <josephludovick@gmail.com>
To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

Victor
Umesoma funsisho la kanisa juu ya Biblia? Lisome kwanza kisha andika. Usiwe kama ngumbaru. Kama tunafanya argument namna hii itakuwa vurugu. Read as we do when you put a writting. Kama umesoma na hukuelewa sema tukufafanulie.hakuna kitu kibaya kama kujifanya unajua wakati hujui. Inaitwa intellectual mustarbation.
On Dec 23, 2014 6:48 PM, "Victor Mwita" <victormwita@gmail.com> wrote:
Joseph nadhani katika mijadala kama hii hasa ya Biblia wenye hadhi primary ni wakatoliki. Tunajua vitu vya kutosha kwenye Biblia kiasi cha kutodanganyika na hizo terminology za kipagani za kwenu. Na hizo arguement za ukubwa na ukuu wa dhehebu ndio aliokutana nao Yesu wakati wake na akawaonya hao walimu wa sheria na mafarisayo. Wanadhani kwa kutafsiri Biblia wanavyopenda na kuwepo kwa mfumo wa miaka mingi ndio defence.
Mafundisho ya kipagani hayakubaliki. Nyie komaeni kutetea dhehebu badala ya kujifunza ukweli ili uwaweke huru na mafundisho yasiyo ya kikristo.
Kipindi cha Nuhu waliokolewa watu wanane tu na sodoma na gomora waliokoka watatu. Kama unadhani Mungu anahitaji numbers na sio watu watiifu wa kweli basi endelea kumtegemea bikira maria atakuombea
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On 23 Dec 2014 18:21, "Joseph Ludovick" <josephludovick@gmail.com> wrote:
Sasa Materu
Usijifanye hamnazo. Hizo quotes zinasema nini kuhusu traditions? Acha kurukaruka
On Dec 23, 2014 6:15 PM, "'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Ludovick & Co.
In professing to interpret the Bible, in the light of tradition, the RC Church in reality places traditions above the Bible, so that the RC is governed, not by the Bible, nor by the Bible and traditions, but by the church itself, which sets up the traditions and say what it means. When a RC priest is ordained, he solemnly vows to interpret Scriptures only according to "the unanimous consent of the fathers". But such "unanimous consent" is purely a myth.  They contradict each other, and even contradict themselves as they change their minds and affirm what they previously had denied.  The priests and the people alike look upon the Bible as a mysterious book. For this reason, the average RC is faithful to his church, but neglects the Bible. Instead of following the Bible, the priests and people follow the traditions of men.

From: Joseph Ludovick <josephludovick@gmail.com>
To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

Materu and Co.
Revelation does not come only from the Bible. It also come from sacred Traditions
This is what the Bible itself speak of these Traditions.
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions
that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or
by our letter.
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and
empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to
the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to
Christ.
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season;
reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and
teaching. For the time is coming when people will not
endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will
accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own
passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth
and wander off into myths.
Now I commend you because you remember me in
everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered
them to you.
On Dec 23, 2014 5:15 PM, "Victor Mwita" <victormwita@gmail.com> wrote:
Telesphor we as Christians understand that the Bible is the only authority. Anything not written in the Bible is not frm God.
Jesus divinity is a factor and nobody questions that.
Jesus is the only name and the Bible says there is no other name. So Mary or priests have nothing to do with pardoning of sins in any way. What you have been made to believe is unbiblical and infact its an abomination.
H
Jesus had blood brothers and sister. If u want a proof i will give u verses in the bible.
Finally Mary going to live with John cannot be a problem because he was a closest friend of Jesus
My only advice to all of my catholic brothers is to read what the bible says and compare with your teachings. If they contradict follow the Bible
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On 23 Dec 2014 16:56, "'Juda Semali' via Wanabidii" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Materu,

I am sure ur very wrong. I can not put in writing all my urguments with regards to ur criticism to the Roman Catholic Church but for sure you have been misinformed.

I have been reading all ur urguments and I don't find the reason why u should be so pathetic with RC's? God wouldn't have let the church survive if it was misleading the way u are urguing.

1. Where is X-mas date 25th Dec. In the bible? Its clearly understood that, the exact birth date of Jesus is unknown. But what RC's do, the have seasons which reflect the seasonal weather or so when such an incident occur. That's why they celebrate X-mas for 4 consecutive weeks to signify that, its a season when Jesus was Born.

To me the question I would like to ask u is that, can you show me in the bible where it is written that, any one celebrating X-mas on 25th Dec, or 1St Jan or 8th Jan is a sin? Orthodox and Eastern Churches have dates to celebrate X-mas. Others celebrate on 6th of Jan others on March. All those are human interpretations. Why should u attack RC's for celebrating it on 25th Dec? Why can't u speak of 6th Jan and those of March?

On the other hand, Pope "The successor of St Peter" has the mandate from God to make decisions for the church. Jesus told Peter that, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in Heaven. And I say unto thee, that though art Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my church (here is RC's), and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee, the keys of the Kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven".

Jesus built his church unto St. Peter the disciple and it is from him, all the RC's pope derive their authority. They decided to change the one you called "The Pagan celebration" into the "Holly Celebration" with the same authority.

I have seen nowa days pubs and recreational centers being changed from sinful venues to churches. Does it have any difference with what the pope did for RC's?.

I would advise you that, never enter into arguments that will not help u inherit the kingdom of God.

Regards,


Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on the Tigo Tanzania Network
From: "'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 13:21:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

Telesphor, Christians who have made any effort to talk with RCs about spiritual things know that they have received but very little Bible instructions from their priests. But the lack of Bible knowledge is but a natural consequence of the fact that the priests themselves have only a minimum of a Bible study in their seminary training. It seems surprising that it takes so long for a priest to discover the truth. There are hundreds of thousands of good, honest and sincere people in RC Church who are unaware of the error of its doctrine and perhaps also of the evil that stains its history.  I urge them to compare what the Bible, God's Word, says with the claims and doctrines of the RC Church.

From: Telesphor Magobe <tmagobe@gmail.com>
To: "wanabidii@googlegroups.com" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

Frank, you say "the RC Church has led so many millions astray from the Bible... This is why her hierarchy very carefully avoids a free, public discussion of these things." Now I ask you to give supportive evidence of these claims.



On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 2:29 PM, 'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii <wanabidii@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Telesphor, the RC Church has led so many millions away from the Bible. To one who is at all acquainted with the morality taught so clearly in the Bible, the statement quoted here will be shocking. I would like for every leader to know that the RC Church is the most vulnerable institution on earth today. This is why her hierarchy very carefully avoids a free, public discussion of these things. Frank

From: Telesphor Magobe <tmagobe@gmail.com>
To: "wanabidii@googlegroups.com" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 1:30 PM

Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

Kitu gani kiliingizwa kwenye kanisa kwa ujanja ujanja and for whose interest? Dini ninayoiamini mimi kupitia dhehebu langu linaongozwa na Mungu na hivyo I don't care kama mtu mwingine anaona halifai au linaenda kombo. Hata mimi kabla sijaelewa na kwa ujinga tu niliona hivyo, lakini leo naamini ni Kanisa linaloniongoza kuelekea ukweli wa Mungu na kwa njia inayoeleweka vizuri kwangu kuliko kama ningekuwa kwenye dhehebu tofauti. Ufarisayo unaojitokeza humu hata Yesu alikumbana. Si kitu kigeni kwenye historia ya watoto wa Mungu. Hakuna mtu anayeweza kuthibitisha kama hayo mnayosema, Frank and allies, ni kweli. Ni jinsi tu mnavyoona wenyewe kulingana na upeo wenu maana "nyoka huuma afikiapo". Yesu anasema kwenye Injili 'mwenye imani dhabiti ni sawa na nyumba iliyojengwa kwenye mwamba hata dhoruba ipige kiasi gani haiwezi kuanguka na asiye na imani thabiti ni sawa na nyumba iliyojengwa kwenye mchanga. Kama kuna watu wanaomkosoa hata Mungu na uumbaji wake na Yesu mwenyewe, iweje washindwe kulikosoa Kanisa Katoliki na waumini wake?




On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Arbo <akihaule@gmail.com> wrote:
Hapo umenena.
Nimekupata ndugu yangu.   


On Tuesday, 23 December 2014 05:48:13 UTC+1, victormwita wrote:
Ndugu Arbo Biblia yenyewe inasema wazi kwamba Mungu alijifunua kwa watu kwa njia mbalimbali kbl ya wao kuipata Biblia. Lakini sasa anaagiza kila mtu asikiaye neno lake atubu maana ukisikia neno la kweli na ukalipuuza hapo tena huna excuse: utahukumiwa tu kwa hilo neno. Kwa hiyo kama mnaujua ukweli kuhusu upotoshaji unaoingizwa ktk kanisa kwa ujanja na kujikuta actually mnafanya ibada za kimizimu kanisani sidhani kama ni vzr ndg zenu tukae kimya bila kuwaambia maana nasi pia tutahukumiwa kwa kutowaambia.
Bahati mbaya Yesu hakuanzisha dhehebu na Wayahudi wenzake walimkataa ndio maana wokovu ukaletwa kwa mataifa. So far mjadala huu sio wa madhehebu bali unahusu Biblia.
Bora tuuache kama unahusu madhahebu
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On 23 Dec 2014 00:15, "Arbo" <akih...@gmail.com> wrote:
Victor ndugu yangu , sidhani kama mtu anahitaji kusoma biblia ili kufahamu kuwa uzinzi ni dhambi. 

Hebu tuchukulie wazee wetu wa enzi zile kabla ya kuingia kwa Ukristu, hivi walikuwa wakiruhusu kuiba? Au  uzinzi ulikuwa ni halali ? Walikuwa wakitumia Biblia ipi?

Hoja kubwa hapa , ni kwa baadhi ya wenzetu Wakristu kuonyesha kuwa wao ni waelewa zaidi wa Biblia kuliko wengine. Na wanachukulia kila fundisho la Kikatoliki lakiuka Biblia , ukifuatilia kwa ukaribu utakuta si sahihi hata kidogo.  Wengi wa wakosoaji wanalenga zaidi kukuza umaarufu wa dhehebu wanalolifuata, ambalo ukilichunguza pia kwa undani utagundua kuwa lilianzishwa baada ya muasisi wao ama kukosolewa katika mienendo ama kutaka nafasi ya uongozi.!

Wanashindwaje kuhubiri yaliyomo katika Biblia , ili hao Wakatoliki au hao waumini wa dhehebu potofu wakawasikia na kuvutika kwao. Badala yake , wanavalia njuga madhehebu ambayo hata kama watu wakishiriki ama wasiposhiriki hayana lolote katika kuokoa nafsi zao?

Kama kweli tunapenda kufuata Biblia na mafundisho ya Yesu, kwa nini basi tusifuate Dini ya Kiyahudi ?  Au Yesu alikataza kuabudu hekaluni? Hii hadithi ya Ukristo imetoka wapi? 

Tukianza kuhoji kuhusu kushika Biblia je kuna dhehebu la Kikristo litapona?

Yesu alileta Dini mpya?



 

On Monday, 22 December 2014 08:59:11 UTC+1, victormwita wrote:
Nadhani huenda hatuna tofauti kuhusu neno nafsi labda tunatofautiana uelewa. Kumpenda Mungu kwa nguvu na akili zetu zote na kumpenda jirani kama tunavyopenda nafsi kunakuja kwa kusoma neno la Mungu-Biblia. Kwa hiyo ukimpenda jirani hutamuua, kumwibia, kuzini naye na mengine mengi. Hayo hutayajua bila kuwa umeyaona kwenye Biblia. Kwa hiyo wote tutahukumiwa kwa kufuata mwongozo mmoja yaani Biblia.
Tatizo langu linakuja pale ambapo dhehebu moja linapoongeza vitu vingi kwa waumini ambavyo havipo katika neno la Mungu. Maana yake ni kwamba Biblia haijitoshelezi au? Biblia hiyo hiyo inasema mtu akiongeza chochote ktk neno la Mungu atahukumiwa.
Kwa nn kuongeza mambo ya kipagani kama srhemu ya ujumbe wa injili? Kama Biblia na Mitume hawakuadhimisha Christmas kwa nn sisi tufanye hivyo huku tukijua ni siku kuu ya kipagani na infact inamsherehekea Tamuzi ambaye ni mpinzani wa Yehova?
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On 22 Dec 2014 00:24, "Arbo" <akih...@gmail.com> wrote:
Kwa ufupi kabisa ndugu yangu Victor, Dhamiri yako ndiyo hukumu yako kuu. Kila utendacho ama utajipongeza ama utajihukumu hata kabla wazo lako hujalitekeleza kwa vitendo ! 

Siku ya hukumu, Mungu atakachofanya ni kupitia orodha ya mabishano yaliyotokea kati ya mtu na dhamiri yake kwa kipindi chote cha uhai wake, sasa ikiwa kwa bahati mbaya mabishano yalizidi sana kuliko maridhiano, na pia ikiwa mtu huyo hakubahatika kupata msamaha wa Yesu kabla roho yake haijauacha mwili; hapo ndipo hukumu itakamilika.

Iheshimu sana Dhamiri yako ndugu yangu asikudanganye mtu. 

On Sunday, 21 December 2014 06:11:14 UTC+1, victormwita wrote:
We will not be judged based on our conscience but rather in the word of God. Jesus said He will bring bring to judgement those who do not heed His words written in His Book.
Some have gone as far as calling Roman Catholic the anti-christ because it pretends to be christian but in reality half of its doctrines and dogmas are pagan
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On 21 Dec 2014 00:26, "Arbo" <akih...@gmail.com> wrote:
Learn to unlearn what you have been made to learn. 

Almighty God , is no writer of books nor does God want you to be bothered with them.

Look inside your self, God has implanted a self-governing , self-regulator and I could add the all knowing; your conscience.  This is mightier than, you could ever think. Obey it, and you will need neither a RELIGION nor a SECT or a denomination ; you will find no need of a PASTOR or a PREACHER; neither you shall need to listen to SELF-CONCEITED , SELF-ANOINTED individuals who finds no good other than pointing fingers at what others are trying to establish, who never takes effort to build theirs but are busy trying to break down others achievements;this is human, basely human;

 obey what God put into you, that is your only survival.

Because no matter what a Preacher tells you, if it is against your Conscience , it shall never be accepted as deserving of salvation. That is why , Jesus , God the Son put it up in a precis; " Your Faith has healed thee"  ,yes I will put it even plainer than him;  " Your Conscience is your Salvation".

So brethren stop finger pointing, let your conscience lead you.

For on that day, before the Almighty God , your Conscience will be your prosecutor, not the length arguments against Catholics or Protestants or Muslim. None shall count that day. None. Take heed.
 

On Saturday, 20 December 2014 20:08:26 UTC+1, victormwita wrote:
Though am not judging Roman Catholics but in reality it has and continues to adulterate Christianity by its unbiblical dogmas. It has done much to discredit the bible than has other religions. Unfortunately its believers learn to defend their religion without justfying their arguements using the bible.
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On 20 Dec 2014 18:04, "Telesphor Magobe" <tma...@gmail.com> wrote:
What I know is that the Catholic Church is a sacrament - a vehicle of salvation and all her liturgical rituals take into account people's cultures and traditions (inculturation) for God uses them to bring about something positive and indeed he has been using them from time immemorial. Take example rituals like initiation, naming of the baby, ablutions, fasting, burying of the dead (including the way Jesus was buried). It's God (not you) who knows His own for God sees in the heart and you outside. Read what Jesus told the pharisees, who pretended to worship God better than others and knew all the ABCs of the law of Moses, but Jesus said challenged them. You could be one of them for you are preoccupied with the speck in other people's eye so much so that you are unable to see the log in your own. After all, God is concerned with individual persons for grace/salvation/sin is personal. No believers will be judged collectively. So, you are just wasting time and energy to criticise the church for whatever for I know God knows how to guide her and her believers better.

On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 5:19 PM, 'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii <wana...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Mungu alisema na wanadamu wayaandike maneno yake  kwenye kitabu. Kwa hiyo Biblia ni Kitabu cha Mungu. Kila andiko lina PUMZI ya Mungu. "Kila andiko lenye pumzi ya Mungu lafaa kwa mafundisho,na kwa kuwaonya watu makosa yao, na kwa kuwaongoza, na kwa kuwaadibisha katika haki; ili mtu wa Mungu awe kamili, amekamilishwa apate kutenda kila tendo jema". [2 Timotheo 3:16-17]. Sasa umetutoa nje ya mada. Rudi kwenye mada kuu.
From: Telesphor Magobe <tma...@gmail.com>
To: "wana...@googlegroups.com" <wana...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 4:36 PM

Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

Ulimwona Mungu akileta hiyo biblia, si ni binadamu ndio walioiandika au iliandikwa na Mungu?



On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 3:59 PM, 'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii <wanabidii@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Mungu alileta Neno lake ambalo ni Biblia Takatifu. Wanadamu wakaleta taratibu zao ambazo ni Dini. Mungu si dini na wala hana dini. Wanadamu wakapenda Dini kuliko Biblia.

From: Telesphor Magobe <tmagobe@gmail.com>
To: "wanabidii@googlegroups.com" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 2:29 PM

Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

Mbona hata biblia na dini yenyewe vililetwa hatukuzaliwa navyo. Na vyenyewe tuulize kwa nini Mungu hakutufanya tuzaliwe na bablia na dini mpaka tuletewe na wengine. Maana hata yaliyo kwenye biblia siyo mila na tamaduni zetu.

On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Telesphor Magobe <tmagobe@gmail.com> wrote:
Mimi nimekubali kupotea maana Yesu alisema anayepoteza nafsi yake kwa ajili yake ataikoa na yule anayeiokoa kama wewe ataipoteza.

On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 12:16 PM, 'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii <wanabidii@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Telesphor, Mungu hapendi mtu yeyote apotee, bali wote wafikie ile toba. Natoa historia fupi ya Krismas na nakaribisha wakosoaji.
Taa, Moto na Mishumaa: Wapagani walioabudu mungu jua walitengeneza taa na kuwasha mishumaa wakidhani joto lile litampa mungu jua nguvu ya kurudi tena wakijua angeishi kipindi chote cha baridi akiwapa nuru na joto la kiangazi. Muda mrefu sana kabla ya Yesu, ibada za mishumaa zilikuwa sehemu muhimu ya ibada. Kuna hadithi inayosema Martin Luther  kwanza aliweka mishumaa katika Mti wa Krismas, kukumbusha watu wale Mamajusi/wataalam wa nyota walioonesha juu ya Betlehemu usiku ule Yesu alipozaliwa.
Kwa sababu moto kabisa ni hatari nyumbani, ndio maana leo hii taa za rangi za kutumia umeme hutumika badala ya mishumaa. Maigizo na michezo ya Krismas, ilikuwa maarufu katika sherehe na ilikuwa kama burudani kuonyesha jinsi Wakristo walitakiwa kuwa na furaha. Kulikuwa na nyimbo na dansi (Carols- French "carole" zilizojaa raha na furaha. Papa aliwataka watu waimbe wakikumbuka kuzaliwa kwa Yesu.
Mapambo: Maua na miti ya kijani  ule ukijani ulionesha walikuwa hai wakati mimea mingine ilionekana kufa. Walining'iniza miti/maua ya kijani nyumbani kwao kwa ajili ya roho walizofikiri huishi msituni, kwa sababu kulikuwepo na joto ndani, roho hizo hazikuweza kufa kwa baridi. Hii katika Italy ilikuwa ni kwa heshima ya mungu Saturn.
Mti wa Krismas: Mt. Boniface katika usiku wa baridi wa Desemba, alikutana na watu waliokuwa wakimwabudu mungu wa kipagani  chini ya mti kwa kutoa kafara mtoto mdogo wa kiume.  Akamwokoa. Akawaambia anzia usiku ule mti ule utakuwa mtakatifu kwao. Ni dalili ya uzima wa milele, unaonyesha mbinguni nao utaitwa mti wa Yesu –Mtoto.
Zawadi za Krismas: Enzi zile Warumi walipokuwa wanaabudu miungu  mingi ya kipagani, walikwenda katika sherehe zao wakati wa baridi katika pango la Strenia, na kukata matawi ya miti na kuyatoa kama zawadi. Baadaye Warumi walitoa zawadi ghali zaidi katika sherehe za mwaka mpya. Watu wa nchi nyingine walitoa zawadi Krismas kukumbuka zile zawadi Yesu alizoletewa na watu wenye busara.
Kadi za Krismas: Kadi za Krismas zikichukua nafasi ya zawadi za mwaka mpya. Kadi ya kwanza inayojulikana ilitengenezwa vizuri ikionesha picha ya mtoto Yesu. Ilichapishwa mwaka 1467 A.D. Picha katika kadi hizi huonyesha watumaji wanakumbuka kuzaliwa kwa Yesu.
Santa Claus: Watoto katika nchi za Ulaya walizoea kupata zawadi kutoka kwa Mtakatifu Nicholas. Katika Amerika ya Kask. Watoto wa masetla wa Ulaya waliachiwa zawadi na mtu mmoja aliyekuwa mkarimu kama Mt. Nicholas. Aliitwa Santa Claus. Katika karne ya 19th  wanaamini Santa Claus alitoa zawadi kwa watoto wote duniani.
Chakula cha Krismas: Katika Italy walianza na kichwa cha nguruwe, kikiwa kimepambwa vizuri na kupelekwa maza kuu.  Baada ya nguruwe alifuata tausi dume. Alipikwa na kufungwa vizuri na mkia wake na manyoya mengine kurudishwa kama mapambo. Baadaye batamzinga.
Boxing Day: Inaitwa sikukuu ya Mt. Stephano. Mt. Stephano alikuwa wa kwanza kufa akimhubiri Yesu. Kwa hiyo akapewa heshima ya siku yake kuwa baada ya kuzaliwa kwa Yesu. Makanisa mengi utaona maboksi ambayo watu huweka fedha kwa ajili ya maskini.
Sikukuu  ya  Mwaka Mpya: Watu hubakiza yale mapambo ya Krismas kwa ajili ya kupamba sikukuu ya mwaka mpya na kula na kunywa kama Krismas. Kulikuwa na desturi ya mtu au kijana kuingia nyumbani kwa watu usiku na kuwatakia "Heri ya Mwaka Mpya". Mara nyingi alikuwa na zawadi mkononi. Mwaka mpya umekuwa ukisherehekewa siku tofauti tofauti. Papa Gregory XIII, katika mwaka wa 1582, alianzisha kalenda tunayoitumia leo,  ambapo Januari 1 ilifanywa Siku ya Mwaka Mpya kwa sababu ilikuwa hivyo toka enzi za zamani za Rumi.

From: Telesphor Magobe <tmagobe@gmail.com>
To: "wanabidii@googlegroups.com" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 10:27 AM

Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

Frank, si umeshatuonya umamemaliza na uko assured of salvation na sisi tusioonyeka tunaefanya ibada za kipagani tutaenda motoni mwa milele kama Kanisa Katoliki? Kazi yako umemaliza.



On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 10:08 AM, 'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii <wanabidii@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Telesphor,
Kama kuna mtu anafanya ubaya, usipomwonya na akafa katika ubaya wake, damu yake itadaiwa mikononi mwako. Lakini ukimwonya, na akikataa wewe unejiokoa nafsi yako. Nilitaka watu wajadili ili kufahamu maana ya:
1. Taa za rangi katika Krismas maana yake ni nini?
2 Mishumaa, maigizo ya Krismas, nyimbo , mti wa Krismas maana yake ni nini?
3.Mapambo ya Krismas, zawadi za Krismas, Santa Claus, Boxing Day na Sherehe za Mwaka Mpya maana yake ni nini, na kama kuna mahali tunamkosea Mungu tubadilike.
Kuwazuia au kuwaepusha watu wasisikie, wasijadili ili kuona ukweli, na hasa katika karne hii ni vibaya sana mbele za Mungu. Kama utatuambia maana za hayo yote, turaridhika. Vinginevyo naamba msaada kwa wanaojua watuelimishe. Frank

From: Telesphor Magobe <tmagobe@gmail.com>
To: "wanabidii@googlegroups.com" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 9:44 AM

Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

Frank, kwa hiyo unauliza halafu unajijibu mwenyewe? If you know what you are doing is not pagan, which I know you don't what even what pagan means, why bother for God's sake?



On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 9:25 AM, 'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii <wanabidii@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Hakuna mtu ajuaye ni siku ipi Yesu alizaliwa. Tarehe 25/12 ilikuwa ni sikukuu iliyokuwa ikisherehekewa siku nyingi hata kabla ya Yesu kuzaliwa. Ilikuwa ni siku ya kuabudu mungu jua. Wakristo walijua kwamba Mungu ndiye aliyeumba jua, hivyo wakaamua kumwabudu Mwana wa Mungu siku hiyo. Katika mwaka wa 601 A.D. Papa Gregory aliagiza Wakristo "wasitoe tena wanyama wao kwa mashetani, bali wamwabudu Mungu kwa sherehe" Kwa jinsi watu walivyokuwa wakibadili na kuwa Wakristo, wakafikiri juu ya Yesu kama mleta furaha, na wakamfikiria Yeye zaidi ya jua wakati wa sherehe. Lakini dhana hii ilianza kidogo kidogo. Katika karne ya nne, wakati Rumi iliposhika Ukristo, walisherehekea kuzaliwa kwa Yesu asubuhi ya Krismas. Ni muhimu Wakristo wa leo kujua haya na maana ya taa za rangi, mishumaa, maigizo ya Krismas, nyimbo, mti wa Krismas, mapambo ya Krismas, zawadi za Krismas, maana ya Santa Claus, Boxing Day na Sherehe za Mwaka Mpya. Kuwanyima watu wasijadili haya huwatendei haki. Wakristo, tukubali kubadilika ki fikra. Ni vema kujua kama tunampendeza Mungu au la. Frank

From: 'ELISA MUHINGO' via Wanabidii <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Christmas: Where are you in the Bible?

Any spiritualy clean person entering into this discussion will be spiritualy dirty by the end of the discussion, and no fruits will be yield out of the discussion.
Hakuna siku inayomsaidia Mkristo kuingia mbinguni ila utakatifu wake. Na utakatifu hauna siku kuwa uwe mtakatifu jumamosi ila mchafu siku zingine.
Hamna haja kuwahamasisha wakristo kujadili hili. Sali kila siku bila kujali Christmas au pasaka maan hayo yalipita muhimu tunasubiri yajayo
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 12/19/14, 'frank patrick materu' via Wanabidii <wanabidii@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [wanabidii] Christmas:  Where are you in the Bible?
To: "wanabidii@googlegroups.com" <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, December 19, 2014, 9:46 PM



What your Pastor Doesn't
Want you to Know.

It was the
…………..church that fixed the
date of December 25th in order to maintain the pagan
festivals / traditions of
Saturnalia.


Will the real Christians
please stand
up??? Why are so called "Christians" celebrating
pagan
"holidays?" I share because I care.  And may offend
some.

Yes! will the
real Christian please stand. Amen, Jesus Christ the same
yesterday, today and
forevermore. So many people get caught up in Christmas, they
shop until they
drop, spend money they do not have, give gifts to someone
only once a year,
need I go on?

 

When I realized this myself I
stopped
partaking in this pagan holiday, but so many haven't and
make so many lame duck
excuses why they continue to celebrate it.

Actually Jeremiah 10:2-4 is
more
explicit, "2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the
way of the heathen,
and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen
are dismayed at
them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one
cutteth a tree out of
the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the
axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten
it with nails and
with hammers, that it move not."

 

Let the pagans
speak for themselves regarding their traditions. The
children of this world are
in their generation wiser than the children of
light. And be not conformed to this
world: but be ye
transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove
what is that good,
and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.  Romans
12:2

 

There is a
"spirit" of Christmas. It casts many a soul under
it's spell. Those
of the world love this "spirit", and speak well of
it. The world
loves Christmas. Pagan roots indeed, and pagan fruits.
Professing Christians
that observe this day and take part with it ought to take
heed that this
"spirit" of Christmas is not the Spirit of truth.
Do not believe
it! 

 

To all those reading this,
when you step
outside after giving up xmas , you will realize that you are
to be seperate and
not of this world. You will know you belong to GOD.


 

I thank God for
opening my eyes to my idolatry a few years ago. I understand
about all of the
Christmas traditions being satanic (lights, trees, candles,
ornaments..etc),
but some tell me that they only celebrate the birth of
Christ. Firstly, God
never commended us to celebrate it, and secondly, IT IS ON A
SATANIC HOLIDAY! I
believe it is a mockery to celebrate the birth of Jesus on
such a terrible, terrible
holiday.

 

Where does one stop with
doing that which is
pagan?  Almost everything we do is pagan in
origin.  Baby dolls for
children, lighting candles, most of our home décor just the
idea of it came
from the pagans. Frank






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