Wednesday 12 June 2013

Re: [wanabidii] Re: [PK] English Grammar-which grammar?

Mo,
Erokamano ahinya o'wad 'wa orio mno and you are welcome. God bless you.



From: Maurice Oduor <mauricejoduor@gmail.com>
To: wanabidii <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Re: [PK] English Grammar-which grammar?

Paul,

It's ok kaka. We understood what you meant. But like I said before, we're really not trying to intellectualize this exercise. We're just having fun and going over some common mistakes that people make or stuff that people agonize over, not being sure of the correct way they should be.

Otherwise I agree with you; the important thing is that one conveys the intended message.

I can easily say; "Me go to market". My message will be conveyed that I'm going to the market.

But for those who want to say this the correct way, we advise that they say; "I'm going to the market".

It's all targeted to those that are interested and by no means is this some kind of engineering. But I'm always interested in hearing input such as yours. You see, because of your comment, I've now learned the concept of Prescriptive v/s Descriptive Grammar. Now I can use that in some future discussion about all kinds of topics. Your input has been very useful to me personally.

Courage






On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:20 AM, Paul Liyai <pauliyai@yahoo.com> wrote:
Friends,
I may have been misunderstood when I talked about 'which English grammar ". I was not correcting anybody's English. I only pointed out that as we look at the use of language, we should specifically stick to descriptive grammar because prescriptive grammar based on a set of rules about how people especially those who think they own a language- or so called native speakers-think language should be used. In a prescriptive grammar there is right and wrong language. The right use of language depends on the standards set by a group of individuals who feel offended when others speak a language without following the proper grammar. A good example is when a Kenyan may use a sentence like-Ng'ombe itakayoingia zizini itakamwa ( or kamuliwa) maziwa. For the users of Kiswahili, the message has already been conveyed although the sentence is grammatically wrong. The correct sentence would be Ngombe atakayeingia zizini atakamwa maziwa.

  If we say that the first sentence is wrong, because the noun ng'ombe should be in A-Wa (Ngeli)class( M-WA for the analog generation like me) we are becoming prescriptive Kiswahili grammarians and this is prejudice. For speakers whose L1( First language) is Luo or Luhya or Gikuyu, it is normal to call any animal with the neuter personal pronoun it which translates to i kiwakilishi cha nafsi  katika ngeli ya i-zi (for the analog generation we used to call this class Ngeli ya N ). We become prescriptive if we demand that the people who use a particular language as their L2( second language) should use it the way we want them to use it and according to the standards that  we have set.

However, on the other hand
we should be gracious to users of a second language by encouraging communicative language use. Here is where a descriptive grammar, which is a set of rules based on how language is actually used comes in. The American rejected prescriptive grammar by writing their own Dictionary and developing their own English. If you are interested in this topic you can visit http://www.tcr.org/tcr/essays/eprize07_Am%20Language%20162.pdf

I was not correcting anybody.
Paul



From: Maurice Oduor <mauricejoduor@gmail.com>
To: wanabidii <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Re: [PK] English Grammar-which grammar?

Precisely Lemburis, precisely. Let's just have fun going over a few things here and there that usually confuse people. I'm not an English teacher even though I've written several speeches for Canadian politicians and senior government officials. Thank God speeches do not require correct grammar.

Courage


On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 12:18 AM, Lemburis Kivuyo <lembu.kivuyo@gmail.com> wrote:
Not only English, every language belong to people. People are the one who decide how to communicate and exchange messages in form of words within themselves. My Kiswahili teacher in my secondary school era told me that, the language is a living being. It keep growing, changing, and copping according to peoples' cultures, geographies, economies etc. That is why there is US English, Canadian English, UK English, Kenyan English, Nigerian English, Tanzanian English etc

After say so, I concur with the fact that let concentrate on communicative English, that transit the message easily and more clearly



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On 12 June 2013 02:53, Jagem K'Onyiego <jairuschurch@yahoo.com> wrote:
Whatever this Grammar is Paul, it must be in the English language. I find English a very strange language, because it can dwell in many other intricate terms that are not clearly defined to the speaker. Yet all these hidden terms are only used to articulate the meaning of an English word or sentence. I wish it was simple like my mother tongue Dholuo. 
 
Recently I watched a local Kenyan program called Churchil live. In that program, which is a comedy program, some lady acting as a Kiswahili language teacher, was trying to give a lesson on "hidden meanings of words in Swahili." She went on to give examples of hidden meanings in words. One example that she gave was that of the word "kondoo". For instance when someone refers to you as Kondoo, it does not men that you are a kondoo. You remain a human being, but the kondoo is hidden inside you in your attitude and deeds. Well, that was a simple "Uchambuzi tanaka wa matumizi ya neno kondoo kwa binadamu.
 
Equally the same these hidden English terms may need researchers to get to open them up for the true meaning to come out. This may not be easy since many people like Jagem are not researchers and neither are we ever looking for the Hidden words. All the regular people like Jagem care about is to put the message across using  this language they call English. Are we together?
 
Jagem
 
Living among the Mighty requires Wisdom.

Dear Friends,
It has been long since I posted anything in here. I would like to encourage such discussions but we should clarify which grammar are we talking about because there are many grammars. Are we talking about desciptive grammar or prescriptive grammar? Some of the so called English grammar may be what we may call in applied linguistics as neo-colonialism syndrome. We should be careful.

From: Maurice Oduor <mauricejoduor@gmail.com>
To: Progressive Kenyans <progressive-kenyans@googlegroups.com>
Cc: VVM Vuguvugu Mashinani <VuguVuguMashinani@yahoogroups.com>; "wanakenya@googlegroups.com" <wanakenya@googlegroups.com>; KOL <kenyaonline@yahoogroups.com>; Kiswahili <Kiswahili@yahoogroups.com>; mabadilikotanzania <mabadilikotanzania@googlegroups.com>; wanabidii <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: [PK] English Grammar
88,
Let me remind you of a scenario that you probably saw countless of times on school playgrounds. The weakest or the smallest guy was always getting bullied and a lot of times he had to fight back to defend his honour and dignity.  He got into a lot of fights. At some point, he earned a reputation as "that kid really likes fighting". I'm sad to say that I'm that kid on the school playground. I'm an easy mark for everyone, an easy target, especially once the reputation takes hold that I like fighting.
Now, I know you don't have time nowadays, with the baby and all, but one day if you have some time to spare, I want you to go into the archives of this forum and investigate each fight, how it started and who started it. You will find that the genesis of each fight I've been involved in is never propagated from my side i.e. I don't start any fight. I get provoked a lot because maybe some folks here think I'm the weakest kid on the school playground. Then I have to fight back, then I get the reputation that "Maurice really likes fighting". I find that reputation by itself to be a form of bullying too. I slap you, you slap me back but then you get a reputation that you like fighting !!!!!  Sometimes I think we live in George Orwell's 1984.
So 88, I never start the fire. I always find it burning and I try to put it out, to extinguish it.
Courage
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:20 PM, WANJIKU.GITHINJI.88 <rose.wanjiku88@yahoo.com> wrote:
Teacher Maurice - I wish you could be doing this rather than engaging in fights. Keep up! Personally I cannot teach English; It was not my subject. Talk of History and Social Ethics I attained a clean A. My dream was to pursue Political science at UON - but I ended up at Kalenjin land.
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 04:06:05 -0400
To: VVM Vuguvugu Mashinani<VuguVuguMashinani@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [PK] Re: (VVM Forum) English Grammar

Heheheheheheheheheeeeee !!!!!!!!!
Parasis,
Philip Ochieng' is a fool. He corrects people in a condescending manner. No one wants to be told he/she is wrong. You have to preserve the dignity of the person even as you point out the mistake he/she made.
Talking about correcting folks, I just noticed a "sin" in one of the postings by someone (I will not name him/her) today on some West African forum. Just in case it was not a typo, let me clear it up.
We don't say:           The number of votes casted
The correct way is:  The number of votes cast
Also,
We don't say:          This shirt costed me 20k
The correct way is: This shirt cost me 20k
While I'm at it,
We don't say:  The trouser fitted my son
We say:            The trouser fit my son
Cast, Cost and Fit  are those strange words that are normally their own Past Tenses.
I hope this clarifies things for anyone out there who was not sure.

Courage
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 3:24 AM, <bapfrancis@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Hehehe awk MorrissI note that Philip Ochieng often takes time to correct folks on English grammer as well
Francis
Sent from my BlackBerry®
From: Maurice Oduor <mauricejoduor@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 03:15:57 -0400
To: VVM Vuguvugu Mashinani<VuguVuguMashinani@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: (VVM Forum) English Grammar

 
Come on, Parasis, you're probably not the intended audience for this type of question. Of course you're right. You'll be shocked what you read in newspapers when some journalists try to negotiate A and THE.
Courage
On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:44 AM, <bapfrancis@gmail.com> wrote:
 
MO The second sentence is specific identifying a particular chief while the first is not.Francis
Sent from my BlackBerry®
From: Maurice Oduor <mauricejoduor@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 02:23:07 -0400
To: VVM Vuguvugu Mashinani<VuguVuguMashinani@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: (VVM Forum) English Grammar

 
"Faiza",
Why don't you give us the answer here?
What's the difference between these 2 sentences? Please explain.I asked a Chief to arrest the people who were encroaching on my land.

I asked the Chief to arrest the people who were encroaching on my land.
Courage

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Faiza Hassan <wasitara@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Online Lecturer. Where is Alpine. I advised him to join your online
class. Did he email you?
On 6/8/13, Maurice Oduor <mailto:mauricejoduor%40gmail.com> wrote: > Lately, I've been noticing some common mistakes in Kenyan newspapers and I > simply can not resist sharing them here with you. These are things that > used to cause me a lot headaches all through Primary and Secondary schools. > > What's the difference between these 2 sentences? Please explain. >
> *I asked a Chief to arrest the people who were encroaching on my land. > > * > *I asked the Chief to arrest the people who were encroaching on my land*.
> > For most people, especially with university education, this should not be a > problem. But some of our print journalists have been using a and the > interchangeably, I guess, without thinking about then keenly. > > Courage >
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