Saturday 25 August 2012

Re: [wanabidii] Is Rape A Good Excuse For Abortion?

Ahsante sana Maurice. LKK

Sent from my iPad

On 25 Ago 2012, at 7:35 alasiri, Laurean Rugambwa <rugambwa@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Sasa Denis,
> Hapa tunajadili kichwa cha habari, hapo juu,hao wanaume unaowatetea ndo unataka wawe consulted kwenye hii abortion?
> Ukitaka tujadili suala la abortion kwenye muktadha tofauti huo sasa in mandala mwingine!
>
> LR
>
> On 25 Ago 2012, at 19:27, "Maurice Oduor" <mauricejoduor@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Kaka,
>>
>> Siku moja ukabakwa ukashika mimba, rudi tujadiliane kwenye swala hili.
>> I believe that abortion is something to be left to a woman aliye mja
>> mzito na daktari wake. Men have no business discussing abortion.
>> How many men have impregnated women and then abandoned them with the
>> kids without any financial support? how many of those men are against
>> abortion or for it?
>>
>> Courage
>>
>> On 8/25/12, denis Matanda <denis.matanda@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> How dare u talk like that about pregnancies? Are u serious that issue of
>>> pregnancy is " none of men's bussiness"? It is only if women could "self-
>>> impregnate" ndiyo kauli yako angalau ingebeba maji.
>>>
>>> Wanadamu mmelaaniwa ndio maana mnaamini katika kuua. Mnaweza kuita abortion
>>> namna yeyote mnayotaka lakini haiondoi ukweli kuwa ni mauaji ya kiumbe
>>> kisichoweza kujitetea. Kama ni sawa kuua kiumbe hicho kikiwa tumboni kwa
>>> nini iwe nongwa kukinyonga mara tu baada ya kukisukuma? Why this arbitrary
>>> "cut- off" ya lini maidha yanaanza?
>>>
>>> Maurice: last time i checked courage was among other things the willingness
>>> to standup for the voiceless and the defenseless.ur unconditional support
>>> for the crimes against unborn kids is nowhere near courageous!
>>> On 25 Aug 2012 15:09, "Jane Mwakalukwa" <mwakalukwa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you are not a woman, a medical doctor, the issue of abortion is not
>>>> for
>>>> you and for those who are chartering away on religious ethos to engage in
>>>> the abortion issue should seek better avenue such as their pulpit to
>>>> participate in other social deeds besides regulating women's reproductive
>>>> bodies.
>>>>
>>>> The catholic church blindly waded into the issue of birth control (
>>>> Most of these priest are not married to women although they have alter
>>>> boys for fun) and that does not qualify them to poke their noses in
>>>> women's
>>>> reproductive issues.
>>>>
>>>> Its a domination issue as far as i am concern.Men should pay
>>>> attention to issue confronting the menfolk and stop their over bearing
>>>> presence in issues they Know nothing about.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Lutgard Kagaruki
>>>> <lutgardk@yahoo.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well said Lauren, religion is very personal and very private! As for me,
>>>>> I also believe in God and hence, my prayer doesn't have to go through
>>>>> that
>>>>> priest that I don't have faith in! And in any case, religion is also
>>>>> part
>>>>> of history; one is Catholic because one was born in a Catholic family
>>>>> (well, in most cases), if the same person was to be born in a moslem
>>>>> family, he/she would have been moslem and, nobody would have blamed
>>>>> them!!
>>>>> For me, a good moslem, catholic, budha etc, will see the light of God if
>>>>> they all lead good lives, love their neighbours as they love themselves
>>>>> and, abide by the good principles of their religions. LKK
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* Laurean Rugambwa B. <rugambwa@hotmail.com>
>>>>> *To:* denis Matanda <denis.matanda@gmail.com>; Wanabidii Group <
>>>>> wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 25, 2012 8:00 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [wanabidii] Is Rape A Good Excuse For Abortion?
>>>>>
>>>>> Denis,
>>>>> I don't believe in catholicism, I believe in God! So let's make this
>>>>> clear. Catholic church is a vehicle towards my belief to God. My
>>>>> allegiance
>>>>> is to God.
>>>>>
>>>>> And just so you know, I know the church more than what you may imagine.
>>>>> I
>>>>> grew up there, I am a catholic, if you think that having a different
>>>>> views
>>>>> with church leaders make me non-catholic, I can't argue with you on
>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't agree with them on issues of sex scandals, and I didn't leave
>>>>> the church just because some bishops and priests were involved in the
>>>>> acts
>>>>> and cover-up on those unspeakable acts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Denis: issue of faith and belief is a personal matter, I wouldn't go as
>>>>> far as declaring someone non- catholic just because he has a different
>>>>> views on issues. But you have the freedom to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe in staying in the tent, fighting inside that tent rather than
>>>>> being outside. So I will remain a catholic even if I am ex-communicated.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope that helps.
>>>>>
>>>>> LR
>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone provided by Airtel Tanzania.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: denis Matanda <denis.matanda@gmail.com>
>>>>> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 04:43:34
>>>>> To: <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Is Rape A Good Excuse For Abortion?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Laurean
>>>>> Your stand on the issues of condoms and abortion have not made u a bad
>>>>> catholic; they've made you a non catholic and that is not debatable!
>>>>> U either believe in catholicism or u don't. Cherry picking is not on the
>>>>> menu!
>>>>> On 24 Aug 2012 14:43, "Laurean Rugambwa" <rugambwa@hotmail.com <mailto:
>>>>> rugambwa@hotmail.com> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Deo
>>>>> We will argue and debate till tomorrow, as i said before this debate
>>>>> about when do life start has to do with one's belief,faith,religion and
>>>>> most importantly values. You know me better, but issues about human
>>>>> rights,defending rights of groups, i stand up by them, no wonder, am
>>>>> thinking of a woman gang raped, or raped by one person is forced to keep
>>>>> the fetus as you called it just because it is a sin to undergo abortion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mzee piga ua Hapo Mimi na Wewe tukubaliane kutokubalina!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am a catholic but I don't agree with my church on their stand on
>>>>> issues
>>>>> such as condoms, abortion,but does that make me a bad catholic? It is
>>>>> debatable! It is depends with whom you talk to.
>>>>>
>>>>> From LR
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24 Ago 2012, at 11:33, "Deodatus Balile" <deobalile@yahoo.com
>>>>> <mailto:
>>>>> deobalile@yahoo.com> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Even if Lauren,
>>>>>
>>>>> The fetus is not a part of the sin, therefore deserves a chance not only
>>>>> to be heard before reaching that cantankerous decision, but also to be
>>>>> protected and remain free from any undeserved attack coz is incapable of
>>>>> defending itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Balile
>>>>>
>>>>> Dar es Salaam, Tanzania
>>>>> deobalile@yahoo.com <mailto:deobalile@yahoo.com>
>>>>> 0713404827/0784404827
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Fri, 8/24/12, Laurean Rugambwa <rugambwa@hotmail.com <mailto:
>>>>> rugambwa@hotmail.com> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Laurean Rugambwa <rugambwa@hotmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:rugambwa@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Is Rape A Good Excuse For Abortion?
>>>>> To: "wanabidii@googlegroups.com <mailto:wanabidii@googlegroups.com> " <
>>>>> wanabidii@googlegroups.com <mailto:wanabidii@googlegroups.com> >
>>>>> Cc: "wanabidii@googlegroups.com <mailto:wanabidii@googlegroups.com> " <
>>>>> wanabidii@googlegroups.com <mailto:wanabidii@googlegroups.com> >
>>>>> Date: Friday, August 24, 2012, 12:45 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Deo
>>>>> When it is about rape, thats my reference point
>>>>>
>>>>> From LRB
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24 Ago 2012, at 10:38, deobalile@yahoo.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deobalile@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Lauren I'm afraid you did not consider the fetus belongs to whom,
>>>>> whether a woman can dare to have one without men's assistance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Balile
>>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on the Tigo Tanzania Network
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Laurean Rugambwa <rugambwa@hotmail.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rugambwa@hotmail.com> >
>>>>>> Sender: wanabidii@googlegroups.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:31:21
>>>>>> To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
>>>>> <wanabidii@googlegroups.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reply-To: wanabidii@googlegroups.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cc: wanabidii@googlegroups.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
>>>>> <wanabidii@googlegroups.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wanabidii@googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [wanabidii] Is Rape A Good Excuse For Abortion?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Courage
>>>>>> You wont get the answer you need as each person will have his or
>>>>> her responses according to values and/or morals they attach to it. You
>>>>> know very well that Issue of abortion is a complicated one, people use
>>>>> religion and faith to make their case! Having said that, i encourage
>>>>> the
>>>>> fact that we should debate it. Who knows what one might learn from this,
>>>>> especially men.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally,I think that choice should be left to the woman, their body
>>>>> their choice! That should a answer the question: when does life start?
>>>>>> Have a good day!
>>>>>> From LRB
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 24 Ago 2012, at 9:16, "Maurice Oduor" <mauricejoduor@gmail.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mauricejoduor@gmail.com> >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rehema,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hivi nikuelewe kwamba you don't support abortion? You are
>>>>>>> anti-choice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please hebu tuelezee sababu zako. No one ever uses abortion as birth
>>>>>>> control. I think walio wengi wanaofanya abortion do it because of
>>>>>>> rape, illness or some traumatic experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Courage
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/24/12, Rehema Kikwete <rehemaki@gmail.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rehemaki@gmail.com> >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On what principle do you base this 'moral right' declaration?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you also think that same woman has the 'moral right' to kill an
>>>>>>>> inconvenient one month-old baby, since it is her baby and no one
>>>>> else's?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Maurice Oduor
>>>>>>>> <mauricejoduor@gmail.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mauricejoduor@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pauline,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely, and without any reservation. A woman
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> the right to have or not have an abortion no matter how the
>>>>>>>>> pregnancy
>>>>>>>>> came along.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Courage
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/23/12, Pauline Mengi <paulinemengi@gmail.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paulinemengi@gmail.com> >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Abortion is the moral right of a woman, rape or no rape
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Evans MACHERA
>>>>>>>>>> <evansmachera@yahoo.com <
>>>>> http://us.mc1218.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=evansmachera@yahoo.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *We need to understand;-
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1.What rape is and what a woman undergoes during and after the
>>>>> beastly
>>>>>>>>>>> act.
>>>>>>>>>>> 2.What is abortion and who is suited to make the decision of a
>>>>>>>>>>> abortion
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> not - in either position,should the woman be forced!
>>>>>>>>>>> 3.Women are likely not to speak,but watch with horror the view
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>> men
>>>>>>>>>>> folk will spit out!
>>>>>>>>>>> 4.Can incest be classified under rape!
>>>>>>>>>>> 5.Can abortion be a form of treatment!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here below is a statement/guideline by the S.D.A Church in a
>>>>> situation
>>>>>>>>>>> that calls on the abortion subject.
>>>>>>>>>>> Guidelines on Abortion
>>>>>>>>>>> Many contemporary societies have faced conflict over the morality
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> abortion.* Such conflict also has affected large numbers within
>>>>>>>>>>> Christianity who want to accept responsibility for the protection
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> prenatal human life while also preserving the personal liberty of
>>>>>>>>>>> women.
>>>>>>>>>>> The need for guidelines has become evident, as the Church
>>>>>>>>>>> attempts
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> follow scripture, and to provide moral guidance while respecting
>>>>>>>>>>> individual
>>>>>>>>>>> conscience. Seventh-day Adventists want to relate to the question
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> abortion in ways that reveal faith in God as the Creator and
>>>>> Sustainer
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> all life and in ways that reflect Christian responsibility and
>>>>>>>>>>> freedom.
>>>>>>>>>>> Though honest differences on the question of abortion exist among
>>>>>>>>>>> Seventh-day Adventists, the following represents an attempt to
>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>> guidelines on a number of principles and issues. The guidelines
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> based
>>>>>>>>>>> on broad biblical principles that are presented for study at the
>>>>> end
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> document.**
>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Prenatal human life is a magnificent gift of God. God's ideal
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>>>>>> beings affirms the sanctity of human life, in God's image, and
>>>>>>>>>>> requires
>>>>>>>>>>> respect for prenatal life. However, decisions about life must be
>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> the context of a fallen world. Abortion is never an action of
>>>>> little
>>>>>>>>>>> moral
>>>>>>>>>>> consequence. Thus prenatal life must not be thoughtlessly
>>>>> destroyed.
>>>>>>>>>>> Abortion should be performed only for the most serious reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>> 2) Abortion is one of the tragic dilemmas of human fallenness.
>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> Church
>>>>>>>>>>> should offer gracious support to those who personally face the
>>>>>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>>>>>> concerning an abortion. Attitudes of condemnation are
>>>>> inappropriate in
>>>>>>>>>>> those who have accepted the gospel. Christians are commissioned
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> become
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> loving, caring community of faith that assists those in crisis as
>>>>>>>>>>> alternatives are considered.
>>>>>>>>>>> 3) In practical, tangible ways the Church as a supportive
>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>> express its commitment to the value of human life. These ways
>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>> include:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> a. strengthening family relationships
>>>>>>>>>>> b. educating both genders concerning Christian principles of
>>>>>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>>>>>> sexuality
>>>>>>>>>>> c. emphasizing responsibility of both male and female for family
>>>>>>>>> planning
>>>>>>>>>>> d. calling both to be responsible for the consequences of
>>>>>>>>>>> behaviors
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> are inconsistent with Christian principles
>>>>>>>>>>> e. creating a safe climate for ongoing discussion of the moral
>>>>>>>>>>> questions
>>>>>>>>>>> associated with abortion
>>>>>>>>>>> f. offering support and assistance to women who choose to
>>>>>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>>>> crisis
>>>>>>>>>>> pregnancies
>>>>>>>>>>> g. encouraging and assisting fathers to participate responsibly
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> parenting of their children.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Church also should commit itself to assist in alleviating the
>>>>>>>>>>> unfortunate social, economic, and psychological factors that add
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> abortion and

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